Pastor Doug Wilson, The Christian Nationalist They Warned You About

Pastor Doug Wilson was interviewed on “The Tucker Carlson Encounter” the other day and the title, “The Christian Nationalist They Warned You About” caught my eye as I had never heard of the guy.

I was intrigued, so planned to skip ahead from time to time because I didn’t want to spend an hour watching it. But Pastor Wilson was so sharp and interesting I was reeled in. He was quick to respond and had well-thought-out answers to every question that was asked of him. Not only that, but they made complete sense to me, and I’m not a “Sunday go to church” kind of guy.

Below is a segment of the interview that should give you some insights into the man, but to my knowledge, the full interview is only available to Tucker Carson Network subscribers.

Below the video, is the full text of the complete interview.

Tucker [00:00:00] So if you’re Joe Biden standing for reelection at the age of 81, the obvious question is what exactly are you going to run on? You’re not going to run on the state of the economy. You’re not going to run on the state of the world, which is increasingly chaotic. You’re not going to run on lengthening life expectancy, because actually life expectancy is declining in the United States under his watch. So what are you going to run on? Well, are you going to run against. And the main thing Biden is going to run against is Christianity running against Christianity. He’s already put people in prison for praying. So it’s not a stretch. But of course, you’re not going to say I’m running against Christianity, the world’s largest religion. You’re going to say I’m running against something called Christian nationalism, which is a way of making traditional Christianity seem like a threat to the country rather than the principle upon which it was founded. So that is their plan. They can running at something called Christian nationalism, and in this they have the full cooperation of Hollywood and the media outlets, which are whipping up the population to a frenzy over this threat called Christian nationalism. Well, most of us, even those of us who pay some attention, aren’t really sure what Christian nationalism is. Is it a product of what it sounds like, which is some branding meeting in the basement of the DNC, designed to make Christians seem really scary if they believe in God? Maybe we decided we would ask the person most closely identified with that phrase Christian nationalism. He’s one of the rare American Christian pastors who is willing to engage on questions of culture and politics, and for that, he has taken a lot of grief. But we are honored to have him. His name is Doug Wilson. He’s the pastor at Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho. He is the author of several books, including a book called Mere Christendom: The Case for Bringing Christianity Back into Modern Culture. And Pastor Wilson joins us now. Thank you very much.

Doug Wilson [00:01:42] Honored to be here. Thank you.

Tucker [00:01:44] So I’m since there was not a post, I’m sincerely confused by the phrase Christian nationalism, which seems like an attack on Christianity to me. What is it to the extent you understand it? And are you a Christian nationalist?

Doug Wilson [00:01:57] So I’m willing to be a Christian nationalist because. I prefer that phrase to the phrase I usually get called…

Tucker [00:02:05] So what do you get?

Doug Wilson [00:02:07] White supremacist.

Doug Wilson [00:02:09] Slave advocate. Oh, you know, racist, you know, all the neo-fascist, so the the, the left really does hate Christianity. Yes. And, with the phrase Christian nationalism, even the part of it that’s coming from the left trying to wrap that around our necks, that’s something I think I can explain. I can say, yeah. Yes, but. And then explain it to inside of two minutes.

Tucker [00:02:34] I mean, I stand before you and thank you for doing that. And I will listen rapidly because I really want to know. But just to clarify the terms, is that a phrase that you or people with your beliefs came up with, or was that a phrase that was leveled against you?

Doug Wilson [00:02:46] Well, both. Cannon, Cannon Press, located in Moscow, Idaho, has a streaming service called Cannon Plus can can press published The case for Christian Nationalism by Stephen Wolf. So that was our embrace of the term. Okay. And Stephen Wolf, he wrote a defense, a scholarly defense of the whole thing, the history of the whole thing. So we embraced it to that extent. But then on MSNBC, just a few weeks ago, there was one of the talking heads there that said, anybody who believes that rights come from God and not from Congress and not from the Supreme Court is a Christian nationalist. Right. So anybody who, you know, making Thomas Jefferson right, right. A Christian nationalist endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights. So anybody who believes that on the according to the left, is a Christian nationalist and there is, a developed set of arguments in defense of that phrase that can be, I think, pointed out in short order. You can’t there’s no you, trying to defend other things they call you. It’s like putting lipstick on a pig. It’s just you’re not. It’s not going to be a thing.

Tucker [00:03:58] No.

Doug Wilson [00:03:59] All right. But this is something that people can say, oh, I love my nation, and I’m a Christian. Why can’t these.

Tucker [00:04:06] Well, that’s how I feel about it, right? I don’t know what it is. So how would you define it?

Doug Wilson [00:04:10] So, it’s, I think very simple. If there is no God above the society, if there’s no God above the state, take got away. Yes. The state is God.

Doug Wilson [00:04:22] Okay. If there is no God above the state, the state is God. The state becomes God and it assumes the prerogatives of deity. Try, you know, cameras at every, at every intersection, aping omniscience. Yes. Omnipresence. In Big Brothers, watching you.

Tucker [00:04:40] Control of your mind.

Doug Wilson [00:04:41] Control of your mind. They want to control absolutely everything, every keystroke. They want to control everything because they’re aspiring to deity. The reason they’re aspiring to deity is because they don’t recognize any god above them. Okay, now this is where everybody I think I’d be with, most people would be with me. A. To that point, all conservative, believing Christian.

Tucker [00:05:02] For the state is not.

Doug Wilson [00:05:03] God. The state is not God. Yes. Okay. And the early Christians were persecuted not because they worship Jesus, but because they would not worship Caesar. All right. The whole issue of Christians being thrown to the lions had to do with who they wouldn’t worship, not who they would. Right. Oh, okay. The Romans were more than happy to add Jesus to the pantheon. Yes, exactly. Okay. But the claims of Christ are exclusive. And Christians would not, recognize Caesar as Lord. Jesus is Lord is the fundamental Christian confession. So most Christians are with you right up to that point. But then the immediate comeback question from our antagonists would be, okay, if you want to have a God above the state, smart Alec. Which God? Okay. And that lands you right in the middle of theological debate, which is the last place in the world a lot of people want to be, for sure. Okay. The. Is it Allah? Is it Shiva, the god of destruction? Is it, the Unitarian god? Is it the Christian god? What do you. You know what God is?

Tucker [00:06:05] It is that the Satan of the church of Satan?

Doug Wilson [00:06:07] Right. And incidentally, if I could put here, our current rulers don’t believe in God, but they do believe in the devil, right? All right. And and their belief in the devil is why they want to ascend the size of the North. They want to be be as the Most High. That was the initial temptation. In the garden. You shall be God. Okay. So our current rulers are are very ambitious, and they want to aspire to that height. We don’t want to resist them in the name of Christ, because we don’t want to launch another series of interminable religious wars, right? Okay. We. Because we don’t want the Muslims fighting with the Jews fighting with the Christians fighting with, you know, all of that. All right. So that’s that’s the most reasonable question when they say which God, the Christian. And here’s the answer to your question. The Christian nationalist is the one who’s willing to answer that question. And speaking into the microphone, the true God, the living God, the one who exists. Yes. Not not the one, not the God on our money, you know. Now, if there’s a corrective, there’s God on our money used to be the Christian God, because that was put there when there was a robust Christian consensus in this country. All right. So we had an informal, informal establishment at the founding of the United States, where the religious differences that we were willing to acknowledge and work with were the differences between Baptists and Presbyterians and Anglicans. It was not the difference between Muslims and Hindus, and it wasn’t the whole entire landscape because, all law and this is the next, principle. All law is imposed morality.

Tucker [00:07:55] By definition.

Doug Wilson [00:07:56] By definition, it’s not whether but which it’s not. It’s not whether you’re imposing morality, it’s which morality you’re imposing. Okay. And if someone says, well, this is going you’re going to wind up imposing morality. I say, well, yeah, that’s what law is, right? You can’t have a structured order in society without the imposition of morality laws. Judgment. Right. But then that leads to the question at which morality, every, every moral system, arises out of the worship of a god. All right. So in Saudi Arabia you’re going to get a moral system that is distinctly different than a moral system that arose out of a country with a Christian history. And yes, census. All right. So the the God you worship, this is a principle, you see all through the, through the entire Bible. And that is you become like what you worship. People begin to be conformed to the image of what they consider to be the highest good. You become like what you worship in Psalm 115. It says, they make idols. They that have eyes and see, not ears, but they hear not noses, but they smell not. And then it says, those that make them are like unto them. You become like what you worship. All right. So if you, if you worship a God who is, Allah does not reveal himself. He reveals his will. He’s a God of power, coercion, force. All right. That’s why Muslim societies are the way they are. Because you become like what you worship. The Christian heritage has, unlike anything else in human history, has a balance of form and freedom, structure and liberty together. Okay. That, I believe, is the unique contribution of Christian theology. We worship. We worship God who is one God. Christians are monotheists. Who is Triune father, son, and Holy Spirit. And so when you’re tackling the ancient philosophical problem of the one and the many, what’s what is ultimate diversity? Like Heraclitus thought, you can’t step into the same river twice. History is just ten tons of confetti dumped into a tornado. Yes. That’s chaos, that’s Heraclitus. Then there’s Parmenides. Everything’s frozen. Everything’s a big unit, right? Monism or chaos? World is king. If you’re Heraclitus. Parmenides. Everything’s frozen and stuck. And they wrestled with this for centuries. And then the Christians came along and the history of ideas. And you Christians, what is ultimate, the one or the many? And the Christian said, yes. Yes. And Christians have room, have mental space, have theological space for, ultimate unity and ultimate division. The fellowship between the three persons of the Trinity. And we become like what we worship. And so, consequently, Christians are the ones who can respect order and form and structure. We we like order, and we love liberty. Well, where does that come from? Right. There’s there’s a certain kind of person who loves liberty, and they just want to do whatever they want to do. And no one can tell me what to do about anything.

Tucker [00:11:16] Libertine.

Doug Wilson [00:11:17] Libertine. And then there’s the person who wants structure. They want to live in a tyrannical North Korea type of thing where every move is dictated. Yes. Right. They want structure, structure, structure. The Christian faith provides the balance between form and freedom. And this is something that has been discussed for decades in the modern setting. Frances Schaefer, the late Frances Schaefer was really good at spelling this out. We we want form and freedom together so that when when we say Christian nationalism, there are only three ways of basic ways of organizing human society. There’s tribalism, there’s nationalism, and then there’s globalism. I don’t want globalism. I don’t want to eat bugs, okay? I don’t want tribalism because nobody wants to live in a failed state. Somalia with warlords? No, but no, nobody wants to live in Thunderdome. Okay. So I don’t want tribalism and I don’t want globalism. And we have a national structure now. Okay. So as a Christian, I would like that national structure to conform to the things that God wants and not the things that man wants. That’s Christian nationalism.

Tucker [00:12:29] But may I ask? Of course I yes, I agree vehemently with everything you said. Let me pose the maybe two problems that people might have hearing the phrase Christian nationalism. The first most obvious is, well, what if I’m not Christian, right? How do I fit into that?

Doug Wilson [00:12:42] All right. You would probably you would fit in better then you’re fitting in now. Well, okay. One of the things that a nonbeliever. Basically, I trust the Christians. This is I’m speaking historically. I trust the Christians to take better care of a secularists liberty than I trust the secularists to take care of money.

Speaker 3 [00:13:05] Nicely put.

Doug Wilson [00:13:07] Okay, I think we’re I think we’re.

Tucker [00:13:08] You have the last 2000 years to to back you up on that.

Doug Wilson [00:13:11] Correct. And that’s not to say that there weren’t warts and sins and blemishes in Christian history. There really, there really were. But you take the worst, you know, they take the worst of the worst in Christian history. Something like the Spanish Inquisition, right? Okay. Some terrible, terrible thing, which I’m not carrying water for at all. Terrible thing. But the Spanish Inquisition killed a few thousand people over a few centuries. That was Stalin on a slow afternoon. The commies have killed 100 million people in the last century or so. All right. Tens of millions of people, and and yet they go on serenely, as though their copybook is not blotted and ours is all right. How long have they been dining out on the Salem witch trials or on the the Spanish Inquisition, or this the Fourth Crusade or, you know, different things like that? Yeah, those those were horrific, evil, bad things. But the Christian, theologian, the Christian preacher has a book of God’s revelation with which to condemn these things. We can say that’s inconsistent. That’s that’s not what God wants. Yeah. And we should conform to what God wants. That’s Christian nationalism. All right. So Christian nationalism doesn’t mean disobeying God’s will in the name of Jesus. Christian nationalism means conforming what we’re doing to God’s revealed will in the name of Jesus. It means obeying him, not disobeying him.

Tucker [00:14:42] So Christian nationalism does not imply forced conversion.

Doug Wilson [00:14:46] It does not.

Tucker [00:14:46] Or a reduction in the rights of non-Christians?

Doug Wilson [00:14:49] No, it’s an expansion of the rights of non-Christians. Right? I believe I believe an average my my standard joke, picked up somewhere is if I were if I were president and what a glorious three days that would be, we’d get we would get a lot done in those days. But if I were in control of this, I believe the average nonbeliever would not know what to do with all the additional liberty he would have. I believe.

Tucker [00:15:17] Can you give me an example of the liberties non-Christians would gain under such a structure?

Doug Wilson [00:15:21] How many of our chains have we gotten used to? Right? Too many. So that one of the common things that the people who are trying to scare people with Christian nationalism, like we’re going to go back to The Handmaid’s Tale type of thing, are trying to spook us with that sort of thing. And they say we need to keep the government out of our bedrooms, keep the government out of the bedroom. Well, I had the privilege a number of years ago building my own house, and I know exactly how many screws the government required to be in the sheetrock in my bedroom, how big the windows had to be for egress in my bedroom, how thick the sheetrock had to be in my bedroom. The. What do you mean, keep the government out of my bedroom? I can’t remove the mattress tag from the, from the mattress because the government is in my bedroom. Literally. Right. So the so one of the things that would happen is that you would have a great deal more practical liberty, as opposed to the kind of liberty that the leftists want you to have. The kind of liberties that you can exercise in a six by a prison cell. You can read porn in a prison cell. Right? You can have dope smuggled into you in a prison cell. You can get high in a prison cell. You can you can be in war.

Tucker [00:16:37] But may I ask, though? I mean, there’s no question that the right, as a general, broadly speaking, offers a vision of greater personal liberty than the left is totalitarian. I think that’s pretty clear. But why? What about Christianity would inspire you to offer more liberty as opposed to, like, your dedication to Hayek? Okay, but why Christianity?

Doug Wilson [00:17:00] I’m a biblical absolutist. Some people would call me a fundamentalist. Like, I take everything in the Bible literally, which when Jesus says, I’m the door, you don’t look for a doorknob. You don’t have to go lie down in green pastures to be a good Christian. So I don’t take the Bible literally. I take the Bible naturally. The way it presents itself to be taken. Poetry is poetry. Vision is vision. History is history. And. But I’m a biblical absolutist. So what the Bible says, I just take to the bank and I have a very dim view of human wisdom. All right. We are a piece of work. The human race is messed up. All right. And so consequently, I only want to allow coercion, which is what this the magistrate does. I only want to allow coercion if there is black letter biblical justification for it. Okay. It’s sort of like a. I don’t have a problem, prosecuting rapists because I can show you in the Bible where that should be done. I don’t have a problem prosecuting murderers, because I can show you in the Bible that this is something that God entrusted to the magistrate to do, to enforce, to keep order by punishing rape and and murder and that. Yes. So on. I don’t I can’t find anything in the Bible that allows the government to dictate the temperature of the water that comes out of showerhead in my bathroom. Consequently, the government has no business doing that. It’s none of their business. They have no authorization. Right. So we have gotten, they. William F Buckley once joked that a liberal is someone who reaches into your shower and adjust the temperature for you. They they know better. Of course, Thomas Soul’s great book, The Vision of the anointed, is. I think the subtitle, something like self-congratulation as the Basis of Public Policy. And that’s the way it goes. They feel serenely above it all, and they want to boss everybody around. I don’t want to boss anybody around unless I have authorization in the book from from the Lord. And and and you look at the Ten Commandments. If you could fit the Ten Commandments on a postcard, and then you could fit the Old Testament in one volume on the shelf, go to the local library and ask to look at the the code for your state. Shelf after shelf. Right. The Federal Register of Laws. Shelf after shelf after shelf. All right. That kind of tyranny. All right. Somebody has a website, I think, called three felonies a day. The average American is guilty of trespassing. They can always get use for something. Of course. Right. Because they’ve got so many rules that you’re always transgressing. And then when they decide to pull the switch, they can just come scoop you up and take you off. Right. And make it happen. In a in a biblical law order, you have ten commandments, and then you have the commentary on those ten commandments, which would be the rest of the Old Testament and the New Testament. And if it’s not there, right. If, if, if someone says, we need to prosecute this guy for hate crimes, right. As a and I say, oh, as opposed to the normal, ordinary love crimes. What what are you talking about? Why why are you punishing him for an attitude? Right. You have no. You have no authorization. You can. You can, hit it. Get. You can get him for taking the guy’s bicycle or smashing in his windows. You can. You’ve got authorization biblically to punish the wrongdoer. That’s Romans 13. The God gives the sword to the magistrate to reward the righteous and punish the wrong to her. But then the Bible defines what is that? Wrongdoing and certain things. People think that if it’s in the Bible, it we can enforce it. Well, no. In the Bible, there’s a difference between sins and crimes. Right. A crime is something that the Bible identifies as evil. And there’s a civil penalty attached. But in the Ten Commandments, the 10th commandment, covetousness, there’s there’s no penalty attached. I don’t want covetousness. Police. I don’t want lust. Police. I don’t want there’s there’s no penalty attached. I have no authorization to arrest someone for looking longingly through a catalog too long. That’s a that’s beyond our capacity. So we we should have nothing to do with that. And and you find that if you were strict with this, you’re going to you’re going to find, there’s a wonderful title of a book, The Emergence of Emergence of Liberty in the Modern World. And it’s a history of the Protestant Reformation and how a lot of our, practical, substantive liberties grew out of certain theological assumptions that, that were established and reaffirmed, some inherited from the Middle Ages and some, established a new and some some established at that time. So people think that, Christians are going to bring in this Handmaid’s Tale hellhole sort of thing. But there was in 1892, there was a Supreme Court decision. And it was exquisitely named Holy Trinity versus the United States of America. And it was the Holy Trinity was the name of a church. And Congress had passed a law forbidding, merchants, contractors to import a bunch of foreign labor, pay for their passage and then release them into the country. So it was there was a law against paying for the passage of a foreign laborer. And that was meant for these big construction projects. Well, a church, I think, in New York named Holy Trinity, called a British minister to be their new, pastor. And they paid for his passage over. And so, of course, some zealous prosecutor. Charge you know when after them over this affront to to the laws of the United States and the case went all the way up to the Supreme Court, and it was Holy Trinity versus the United States of America. The chief justice was a man named Brewer at the time. This was 1892. And in 1892 they handled the case itself in a commonsense way, deciding for the church. Look, you know, I wasn’t talking about that. They did. And then Brewer said, and while we’re on the subject, let’s take this opportunity to remind everybody that the United States is a Christian country. Okay. And then he went through the history of the United States, the fundamental orders of Connecticut, the founding documents. Just walk through. He was historically literate. And he said definitively in this Supreme Court decision, the United States is a Christian country. Now, the thing I want is to be living in 1893. That’s what that’s what I want. In terms of the judicial setup, I don’t want, to capture this. The the bad guys Orwellian apparatus that they’re setting up and then turn it to Christian ends. I don’t I don’t want to butt into their lives the way they want to, but into everybody’s life.

Tucker [00:24:16] Well, that’s for sure. And, I mean, what you’re describing is a country that, as it has become less Christian, has become more authoritarian. Correct, right. And that’s obvious and demonstrable. But but for saying what you just said, you will be and have already been by Russell Moore, most recently in Christianity Today, described as a theocratic. And what you just described will be called theocracy. Right. How is what you just described different from theocracy?

Doug Wilson [00:24:41] Okay. What what people when people say, Russell Moore said aspiring theocratic. He didn’t think I’d made it yet, but he he said that I wanted to a deep in the dark recesses of my heart. I wanted to be a theocratic. The here’s the difference between this is what they’re thinking of when they think of theocracy. They’re thinking of ecclesia ocracy. Right.

Tucker [00:25:06] They’re thought by priests.

Doug Wilson [00:25:07] Rule by clerics, rule by priests. Okay. And they’re thinking of something like Iran, right? With a bunch of reformed, weird beards, issuing dicked, they are doing their thing. They they’re thinking of a cabal of, clerics and holy men and shamans and whatever, issuing decrees on the basis of a religion that the populace doesn’t accept. And, and we just jam it down their throats. Well, we don’t jam things down people’s throats. That’s what they do. That’s what they’re doing now. Okay? That what they. When when ro was first established, there were most of the states had laws restricting abortion. They jammed their, ungodly dictate down everybody’s throat, in the Obergefell decision. What they did is they jammed it down his throat. They said, this is what we must progress waits for. No, man. We’re not. We’re going to do it. Do it now.

Tucker [00:26:04] Sure, California passed a referendum restricting marriage to a man and a woman, and it was overturned. So much for democracy, right?

Doug Wilson [00:26:11] So, we are not wanting to, on the basis of some clerical decision, have the clerics rule and decide, like in Iran, only a Christian. We don’t want the Christian ayatollahs doing that sort of thing. That’s what most people think. What most people call a theocracy is actually an ecclesia ocracy. Okay. Christian. The historic Christian doctrine is when people say, well, Pastor Wilson, you need to affirm that the separation of church and state. This is sort of thing. It makes me want to dance in place because Christians invented the doctrine of separation of church and state. That’s our doctrine. That’s that is something that came from us. We’re the ones who developed it. And separation of church and state is crucial because there are two governing institutions. The church governs men in a certain sphere, and the state governs men in a certain sphere because they’re both forms of government. You can keep them separate. You can keep the apples and oranges separate into bowls on the counter because they’re both fruit. Right. But what when when people say separation of church and state and they mean separation of God and state, separation of morality and state, separation of ultimate truth, claims and state? I would say stop, wait, wait just a minute. Are you really telling me that you want to live in a state that is utterly disconnected from morality? Is that what you want? Is where the you protest and your protest is a moral one. And they say, well, we we believe in the separation of morality and state.

Tucker [00:27:54] But as you noted at the outset, that’s that’s a nonsensical proposition that has never existed and can’t exist.

Doug Wilson [00:27:58] I know, because all moralities arise out of a moral consensus, of course. Okay. Which is, overwhelmingly religious. So consequently, you can separate church and state, but you can’t separate ultimate truth claims and state. It cannot be done. Every people needs to know who they are. They need to know what they are. They need to know where they came from. They need to know how we’re supposed to behave on the way. Those are basic theological.

Tucker [00:28:25] I don’t think any honest, rational person would disagree with what you just said. That all laws are judgments about how people should live in their moral judgments, and that there’s going to be a system for deciding what’s right and wrong, because there always is. And it’s going to be if it’s Marxism or Christianity, one scholar, a superior. I guess the question, though, is how do you affect or bring back such a system in a country that has no working majority of anything?

Doug Wilson [00:28:54] Yeah. So when you have a cacophony of, laws, it reflects the cacophony of opinions among the people. And, and this is where unbridled immigration comes into the picture. You can’t just import floods and floods of people with different assumptions about everything into one spot and say, play nice children. Societies have to function on the basis of a shared moral consensus. Exactly. Okay. If there isn’t a shared moral consensus, then you’re what you’re going to get is anarchy and disruption. .

Tucker [00:29:35] Wait a second. I have read, many Episcopal bishops and Russell Moore, not to be the pun poor Russell Moore, who’s living in agony already, but, say, make the claim that it is anti-Christian. If you don’t let anyone who wants to move your society move here.

Doug Wilson [00:29:51] Right? That’s like saying to a godly, sweet Christian couple who has three foster children and they’re taking good care for kids of their own. They’ve taken in three foster children, and they’re taking good care of them. And then you show up one day with a short bus with 28 new foster children, and you say, we’re depositing them here, and we wait, wait, the couple says we didn’t sign up for that many. What kind of non-Christian attitude is that refusing to take these 28 new foster children? The dad who was taking care of good care of three foster children is should be able to say, look, I’m taking care three and I think I’m doing a good job taking care three but if you drop off 28 more, I’m not going to be taking good care of anybody. It’s going to swamp the system, right? You can’t say, we need to kick the doors open wide in the name of hospitality without the capacity to process them. You have to assimilate them, right? And it’s got to be orderly. So if people say, do I object to immigration? Of course not. I object to anarchy. I object to chaos. So I object to the lawlessness that’s operating on the southern border. Orderly immigration. I’m all about, all about that. And that would be wonderful.

Tucker [00:31:11] I’m sorry I’ve sidetracked you. I had to ask you, but. But you were in the process before I interrupted you of answering the question. How do you go back to a system based on Christian assumptions in a country that’s no longer Christian?

Doug Wilson [00:31:24] What you do, and this is this is you invite a preacher under your show, you’re going to get get some preaching.

Tucker [00:31:31] Hope so.

Doug Wilson [00:31:32] All right. So there’s no way there’s no way to do it outside of God raising up preachers who preach a hot gospel and church planting. There’s there’s no way to do this politically.

Tucker [00:31:44] And you got to make the country Christian again.

Doug Wilson [00:31:46] That’s right. Basically, we’re in such a mess that there is no political solution. All right. We’re we’re beyond hope. There is no political solution. The next election, however happy it might make us for ten minutes, is not going to fix everything.

Tucker [00:32:01] That’s right.

Doug Wilson [00:32:01] Okay. Our disease is radical, and it’s spiritual. We’ve got a we’ve got a radical leprosy. And, the United States needs to repent, of its sin, to use an old fashioned term. We need to repent of our sins, our arrogance, and turn back to God. That’s what. That’s what is necessary. And we need preachers who are willing to tell them to do that, to proclaim that this is what you must do and they must not do it in terms of law, like thou shalt, thou shalt, thou shalt. The law condemns, but the gospel liberates. So the law brings in judgment the law. Well, the law makes us aware of the rich young ruler. Is made aware of his lack, is made aware of his sinfulness by the law. And then you turn to Christ. And what Christ offers is full, free forgiveness. But forgiveness. With him now in charge. So forgiveness. It’s not what Bonhoeffer would call cheap grace. It is a radical death, burial and resurrection. All right, so this is what the Easter season is all about. Death, burial and resurrection. And the Bible tells us that when we look to Christ, we are crucified with in in faith, we’re crucified with him, we’re buried with him, and we rise again from the dead with him, and we ascend into the heavenly places with him that we are. We are made participants of the virtue of Christ by by virtue of his death, burial, and resurrection. So America needs Jesus. America doesn’t need to turn over a new leaf. America needs a new life. And and new life is only given on God’s terms as the sheer grace of God. It’s got. That’s how it’s got to be. And so what we need is preachers. Christian preachers who will stop being ashamed of the name of Jesus and preach the gospel and preach the gospel as though it’s supposed to spread out, into the streets after the service. So too many churches are Jesus boxes where where you go in and you have your meeting with the with Jesus in your box, and then you go out and live pretty much like everybody else. You try to keep your nose a little bit cleaner than the average guy, but you still fit right in out there. But the claims of Christ are total, and the things that the thing that we try to emphasize in our, our ministry is all of Christ for all of life. I’m fond of saying theology needs to come out at your fingertips. Whatever it is you take in theologically needs to be enacted and done. And if theology comes at your fingertips, and if preachers are preaching the gospel and there’s a great religious reformation and revival, then and I’m seeing some stirrings of.

Tucker [00:34:49] This, I am too-

Doug Wilson [00:34:50] Okay. So I’m not beyond hope, but I’m beyond political hope. There is no political solution, no political hope. But that doesn’t mean that there’s no hope. So in the. I can point to two. Great. The Reformation and the great Protestant Reformation would be one. And then the Evangelical awakening in the 18th century in England was another one. Yes. According to, I think prudent observers, England was headed for their own version of the French Revolution. Things were awful in the the spiritual condition of the country was, in tatters and in ruins. We sometimes think of the Victorians, 19th century Englishmen, as the, as the buttoned up tight, but the previous century that were anything but buttoned up tight. They were lewd, lascivious, immoral, oppressive. And the, they were they were headed for revolution. The the working man there was downtrodden and oppressed, and it was really, really bad. And the Wesley’s and George Whitefield revival preachers, I think, were the gods instrument for saving England from their French Revolution. That’s the kind of thing we need. We need God.

Tucker [00:36:05] I think we’re headed towards something. I would say a French Revolution. But do you think we’re headed towards some sort of catastrophe?

Doug Wilson [00:36:13] Yes, I believe yes. I believe that, apart from repentance, deep repentance, I believe that we’re headed for real, real chaos. I think that the future is not going to be evenly catastrophic all over. Right. But I believe it’s going to be bumpy, bumpy and chaotic. Chaotic and places and violent and bloody in places. I and I believe that the only thing that’s going to head that off is preachers who stop being ashamed of their religion.

Tucker [00:36:43] But there are only like three of them in the whole country. Like, how can that happen?

Doug Wilson [00:36:46] Yeah, there are maybe maybe five.

Tucker [00:36:50] Why are there so few?

Doug Wilson [00:36:51] Well, there there are so few. There’s two things, Elijah and a moment of despondency said I’m the only one left, and. And they’re trying to kill me. And God says, well, now I’ve reserved 7000 who’ve not bowed the knee to bail. So I believe that there are thousands of faithful preachers. One of the things that happens is that, the media, which is in the tank for the devil, doesn’t cover that sort of thing. There could be lots of faithful ministries. I believe there are thousands of them. But they don’t get coverage and they don’t get highlighted. They don’t get reported. You remember the Tiananmen Square, protests?

Tucker [00:37:35] Tank Man.

Doug Wilson [00:37:36] Tank man. Right? But you remember all the reporting on how many thousands of baptisms happened in the square?

Tucker [00:37:42] No.

Doug Wilson [00:37:43] Thousands of Baptist, Christian baptisms. Christian baptisms in the square. Tiananmen square. And. And our media turned it into a great high five moment for Jeffersonian democracy. And that element was there. Okay. But there was a hard Christian element right at the center of that.

Tucker [00:38:03] I’ve never heard that in my life.

Doug Wilson [00:38:04] Okay. Thousands of baptisms in the square in Tiananmen Square. Now, the thing that, and it’s that sort of thing that you could have something similar happened here. And is MSM going to report on CBS going to report on it? No, they are they are combatants. They are referees in the basketball game who are dribbling and shooting with the other team.

Tucker [00:38:26] Me, I have so many questions. A couple quick ones in, in throughout the Old Testament, maybe even in the new nations are punished for their sins. Not just individuals, but nations. Corporate right? The nation. Does that still happen? Do you believe? And second, you’ve made reference a couple of times to America’s America, not just Americans, but America as a nation. Its need to repent of it since what sins?

Doug Wilson [00:38:53] Okay, so yes, God still judges nations. Nations. God still judges God test. God is the sovereign of all the earth. He still does, right? Wickedness still offends him. And, of.

Tucker [00:39:06] But maybe a lot of Protestants, or maybe just me, think of that as taking place just on an individual level.

Doug Wilson [00:39:13] I think that, there’s a there’s a good book called The Civil Wars Theological Crisis by Mark Nowell, who said that the idea that God judges corporately is an idea that for Americans died with the American Civil War because both sides were Christian, professed faith in the Christian God. Both sides were praying for victory, and both sides concluded after the war. Well, that did a lot of good. What what was the what was the meaning of that? Right? Yes. So we became, after in the aftermath of the war between the States, we became sort of agnostic on whether God ever take sides or intervenes on behalf of, righteousness or unrighteousness in a particular nation. But I believe he does. So I believe that if our nation were destroyed for our arrogance and conceit by fireballs from heaven, you know, if if God were to do that, it would be not unjust. It would be a just judgment. We we have been arrogant in the extreme, and I would say the central arrogance there’s there’s fruits of this arrogance downstream, the 60 million children who are aborted, the the various things that we do, the going around the world preaching at people, how to get their life together.

Tucker [00:40:32] Threatening them, killing them when.

Doug Wilson [00:40:33] We don’t know how to live our lives. All of that. That’s the fruit of the central sin. The central sin is secularism. The the secularism is that we can we can live decent, orderly lives without Christ. We don’t need God in order. We don’t need God in order to live. Placidly, the way we did in the Eisenhower years with black and white sitcoms where father knows best. And, you know, we can we can do that. And I’d say, yeah. Okay. How’s it going? We. The grand secular experiment is now at a point where they don’t know what a girl is. That’s because secularism is not a biologist, right? They they can’t tell you what a girl is. They can’t tell you what a human being is. And if you if they can’t tell you what a human being is, how can they tell you what human rights are? Well, they they can’t and they and more more than that, they don’t want to because because they want to move us around as though we are just, pieces on the board that they, you know, to, to, to gratify their whims and their theories. So secularism is the idea that we can establish agnosticism or atheism as the official faith of the country and govern ourselves decently without reference to God. That is radically false. We can’t do.

Tucker [00:41:55] It has ever been achieved anywhere in.

Doug Wilson [00:41:57] History that you’re aware. No. And and here’s the another mistake that and you alluded to this the crossover between individuals and countries. So we all know atheist. You know, there’s an atheist friend or an atheist neighbor who’s a sweet guy, and you wouldn’t mind him taking in your mail when you go on vacation and and you don’t think his atheism is going to make him run over and burn down your house as soon as you’re around the corner? Right. He. Because he’s he’s a nice guy. There are nice guy atheists here and there throughout, believing countries, but there has never been an atheist country that wasn’t a hell. Okay. That’s because man is collectively consistent. Individually, we have the capacity to be inconsistent.

Tucker [00:42:47] Yes.

Doug Wilson [00:42:47] Okay. Individually, someone might have been brought up and gone to Sunday school, been taught not to steal and not to attend. But then he loses his faith in college. But he keeps all the apparatus of his upbringing, right? He still wants to be a good citizen. He drives on the right side of the road. He he, you know, he does all he he does all those things because individuals have the ability to be inconsistent. But when godless types are running the show and they are making all the decisions and they don’t answer to God at all, the countries that they rule are always hell holes. Always.

Tucker [00:43:27] So secularism is the sin and that gives rise. You’ve used the word arrogance 2 or 3 times, right? We describe with that. What do you think that arrogance is?

Doug Wilson [00:43:37] Yeah. The arrogance is things that like, we can come in and take your children away, but you didn’t use the right pronoun.

Tucker [00:43:44] But, but but but I mean, be more precise. Why does secular secular ism, do you believe, lead to arrogance?

Doug Wilson [00:43:51] Yeah. Because I if I’m in charge of everybody and I believe I answer to no one, there is no judgment there. You know, just imagine there’s no heaven. Yeah. No hell below us. Above us. Only sky. Just imagine that. And above Buchenwald. Only sky. Above Auschwitz only sky. The universe doesn’t care. Okay. The universe doesn’t care if I’m in charge, if I have political power, if I’m Mao. And I know that power grows out of the barrel of a gun. And there, there’s no one above me that I’m ever going to answer to. If that’s my framework, I have absolutely no reason not to do whatever I please. That’s right. There’s no accountability. And that’s what secularism leads to. That’s at least of necessity. And this is why, in the old order, in the, in the Christian order, it used to be laws against taking testimony in court from people who wouldn’t take an oath in the name of God. You couldn’t you couldn’t testify in court if you didn’t believe in a final judgment.

Tucker [00:44:58] Because there will be no constraint on your lying.

Doug Wilson [00:45:01] No reason to not lie.

Tucker [00:45:02] So what? You know, it’s possible that you’ve got very far out threatening views, but, that you haven’t expressed yet. But. And I’ll ask you if you did. Yeah, but.

Doug Wilson [00:45:12] Oh, no. Everything’s. I’m. I’m in the middle of the road. Extremists are to my right and left.

Tucker [00:45:17] You are kind of in the middle of the road, at least in what you’ve said so far. From a Christian perspective, you’re not. You don’t convert anyone by force. You want people to have more freedom to make their own decisions about what they believe, right, and how they want to live. You’re against arrogance and hurting people. I mean, these are not crazy views. So why are you so hated by so. Well, obviously by the left, but also by a lot of Christian leaders don’t like you and are always attacking you. What is that?

Doug Wilson [00:45:44] Well, some, the left hates what I’m talking about. I think because I’m about to touch the thing with a needle. I’m about to. I’m going for the sore spot. The sore spot is the secular. This radical disease of secularism. They want to continue to govern their affairs without any kind of accountability. Yes. Oh, yeah. They want they want to be left alone as they are running the show, and they will give the treatment to anybody who crosses them. All right. Right. You’ve gotten the treatment before I get the treatment. Yeah. They they know how to rough somebody up. Okay. And there are Christians who distance themselves from me because I see that. Right.

Tucker [00:46:25] But. Right. But if they’re if they’re self-described Christians, again, I don’t want to use his name once again, but the guy who edits Christianity Today is fixated on you. David French is a New York Times columnist who calls himself a Christian. And they really go out of their way to attack you. What? Why?

Doug Wilson [00:46:43] Well.

Tucker [00:46:44] Basically, your theology doesn’t sound so different from, like, kind of conventional Christian theology, as I understand it. Right.

Doug Wilson [00:46:50] Here’s the this is the I think the distinction. I mean, it.

Tucker [00:46:56] Okay. You know, that there’s that.

Doug Wilson [00:46:58] Okay. What? We ought to acknowledge God, and I mean that we really should. Right. So there’s a difference between that and wanting a place at the table. Yeah. So, David, David, David French and Russell Moore and people like that, what they want to do is they want they want to operate to operate in the secular republic. And they want a place at the table. Okay? They want a place at the table. They want to be treated with respect. And in return, they say, we will treat all opposing views with respect. And what we ask is you treat us with respect and we would like a place at the table, please. Now, I, I don’t I don’t have any illusions about this. When we’re all rounded up and taken off in cattle cars to the camps, David French and Russell Moore are going to be in the next car over there. Right. They the.

Tucker [00:47:46] I think they’ll be guarding you.

Doug Wilson [00:47:48] Well, I think the left hates its tools.

Tucker [00:47:52] Yes, well, that is true.

Doug Wilson [00:47:53] Okay. And I believe that let’s let’s say David French and Russell Moore are to take the most charitable take on it. They would be tools.

Tucker [00:48:04] Oh, they’re definitely tools.

Doug Wilson [00:48:05] Yeah. Okay. And and the tools, the left breaks them and throws them away when they’re done with them. And right now. But the what is the use of the tool? The tool is to say, hey, we will give you we will give you respect. You’re the kind of Christian who could write, get an article accepted by The Atlantic. You’re the kind of Christian who could write for the New York Times. You’re the kind of Christian who who does that as opposed to these extreme guys out here. But the extreme guys are saying things like, well, let’s love God and love our neighbor and build a Christian community and worship God faithfully. And with that, what’s what’s radical about this? Well, we actually believe all of it. We believe that Christ really is Lord of everything, and we should live and pray and love as though we believe. We actually believe that and that. That takes us back to the earlier point. To confess that Jesus is Lord is to confess that Caesar isn’t. Right. That’s the issue. Going back to the early, Christians would not worship Caesar, and I’m not going to worship the state. Right. If the if there is no God over the state, the state becomes God and they proclaim themselves God. I’m going to be like Nebuchadnezzar. Like Daniel’s three friends who refused to be Shadrach. And I’ve got a grandson named Shadrach. That’s. So. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So, we want to pass that legacy on that, refusing to bow down. And Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego said to the king, Our God is able to deliver us. But whether he does or not, we fear him and not you. And that’s the thing. That’s the challenge that the secular state cannot abide. Another great Thomas Soul quote. I’ll paraphrase it. He said. It’s amazing how much panic can be thrown among, people by the behavior. One honest man. It’s true, right? One honest man can throw people into a state of consternation and panic. Because you’re willing to say, look, this is the way it is. We need to love. God hates in.

Tucker [00:50:11] That’s that’s. Boy, that is the truest thing. So let me give you this the the the sincerity test or the ultimate test. Okay. And I’m asking this on the basis of the following assumption that people, particularly preachers, ought to have lives that reflect what they what they preach. You know, that you can judge the tree by their fruits. So how many children do you have?

Doug Wilson [00:50:32] I’ve got three children.

Tucker [00:50:33] How many grandchildren do you have?

Doug Wilson [00:50:35] 18 grandchildren and two great grandchildren just lately arrived.

Tucker [00:50:40] So 23 descendants, plus your wife, right? How many of those 23 are Christians?

Doug Wilson [00:50:45] All of them.

Tucker [00:50:46] All of them?

Doug Wilson [00:50:47] All of them.

Tucker [00:50:48] How often do you see them?

Doug Wilson [00:50:50] On average weekly, if not more. We they all live in Moscow. Some of my grandkids are studying, right out of.

Tucker [00:50:59] But they all live near you.

Doug Wilson [00:51:00] They all live live in Moscow. They’re all centered out of Moscow. And the ones who are studying, away are likely to wind up back in Moscow. We have a Sabbath dinner every Saturday night to kick off the Lord’s Day, to prepare for worship in the morning. Family does. Our family does. The extended family. So all, all of us gather for a Sabbath dinner and then extended family, some Shirttail relatives and any company that is in town. So on a weekly basis, there’s like 50 or 50.

Tucker [00:51:32] Or at dinner.

Doug Wilson [00:51:33] A dinner. And so we have this Sabbath dinner and we begin with prayer. I ask some catechism questions of the grandkids. We sing and then we have a meal together. So.

Tucker [00:51:48] How did you do? How did you pull that off?

Doug Wilson [00:51:50] Well, we didn’t, the Lord has been very, very kind to us, but the in first Timothy three and in Titus one, Paul says if a man doesn’t manage his family. Yes. Well, how can he manage the household of God? How can how can he, work in the household of God if his own family’s not in order?

Tucker [00:52:10] So that is the I mean, you just cited the verses. It’s obviously part of Christian teaching theology, right? Teaching, but it also comports with common sense. It’s obvious. Why do but that is not the rule in Christian churches, right? Preacher’s kid is an epithet for a reason.

Doug Wilson [00:52:28] Right? Picks for a reason and makes missionary kids the same.

Tucker [00:52:34] SR. But why isn’t that? I don’t know if enforced is the word, but even acknowledged as a really important principle. If I’m going to follow you, I have to see as the leader of my congregation or my spiritual guide, then I have to see that the people in your care, your family, have respect for you and love for you and are listening to you like that seems so obvious to me.

Doug Wilson [00:52:54] Do your children love God like you do? Yeah, right. And one of the reasons why.

Tucker [00:52:59] Do we give up on that standard?

Tucker [00:53:18] Your kids are screwed up, too. Yeah.

Doug Wilson [00:53:20] Yeah. Our Johnny is not not the top of the line, but at least he’s better than the preacher’s kid. Or he’s in the same league as the preacher’s kid. So, there’s a difference between Christian forgiveness and cutting slack, right? Right. So we have confused the one with the other and began cutting slack where we ought to have been forgiving. So we have, we’re Presbyterian. We’re, our churches, Presbyterian. We’re not not lesbian. We’re Presbyterian. We’re the kind of Presbyterians who believe the Bible-

Tucker [00:53:55] Branches.

Doug Wilson [00:53:56] Are correct. So, yeah. So they’re, and we’re in another denomination. Crack. And we are. That means the Greek word for elder is presbyter. Us. That’s where Presbyterian comes from. And we have a body of elders that govern our local church. And we have the standard, family in order for the elders of the church. And, and one of the things we ask an elder who’s coming on to serve is if, one of your kids, if there’s a wobble develops, will you bring it up to us so that we don’t have to chase you? We have given leaves of absence, to an elder. Why don’t you take a leave of absence from elder duties for six months so you can pay attention to your kids. So you can. Yes. So you can shepherd your family first? Yes. All right. So shepherd your family first. And by God’s grace. That’s a standard that we have been, pursuing for years now.

Tucker [00:54:53] Does it work?

Doug Wilson [00:54:55] Yes. We have a body of elders whose kids walk with God, whose kids love God. And if. And if, you know, a child rebelled, and walked away, that elder would resign from the elder board because we hold. That’s the teaching.

Tucker [00:55:14] Yeah. If your own kids don’t believe you, why should I?

Doug Wilson [00:55:17] Now, at the same time, I don’t want to water this down. I want to say we believe that we’re evaluating character, not counting rocks. Right. So let’s say let’s say you had an elder who had four kids of his own, and they’re all walking with God. And and then his brother, who was an atheist, got killed in a car wreck, and they adopted a 12 year old girl.

Tucker [00:55:38] I get it.

Doug Wilson [00:55:38] Right. You say? Okay, I’m trying.

Tucker [00:55:40] To assess it on the merits.

Doug Wilson [00:55:41] You assess it on a case by case basis, but as a general pattern and a general rule. The, I wrote a book on this called The Neglected Qualification.

Tucker [00:55:53] I didn’t even know that when I asked you.

Doug Wilson [00:55:55] So, yes, I think that this matters. And I believe that it’s, Christianity I when I said theology flows at your fingertips, it’s supposed to flow out first to the people who know you best. People in your household, the people in your family.

Tucker [00:56:14] I just can’t tell you how much I agree with that more than anything. Thank you for saying it. So I just want to end with your vision of where we’re going, and I think you have probably disarmed your critics by saying, as you did, very clearly, I’m not calling for a political solution to this. The country itself has to change and be right. Worthy of of living the way that you hope that it does. What are the but and then you said, well, but I see signs of that happening. What are they?

Doug Wilson [00:56:43] Right. So I’ve been talking about these things in varying to varying degrees, for 30 to 40 years, and I can see the difference between how this message resonates now versus how it resonated with Christians 30 years ago. Okay. So there are a lot of hungry Christians who were awakened, not woke, but awakened. Yes, by the Covid fiasco. And their their pastors flaked their.

Tucker [00:57:20] Such a disgraceful way.

Doug Wilson [00:57:22] And they the state said your services are not, essential, but shops are and abortion clinics are and pornography shops are. But church is not a-

Tucker [00:57:32] Christian leaders who are afraid to die themselves.

Doug Wilson [00:57:35] Yeah. It was not.

Tucker [00:57:36] What was that? If you’re a Christian leader and you’re afraid to die, maybe you’re not telling the truth about what you believe, right? There’s not a whole religion about this, right?

Doug Wilson [00:57:42] It was a God says. It says in Hebrews that God shakes down that God sends an earthquake. He shakes things so that that which cannot be shaken may remain. So there’s a pressure test or a there was a crisis. Yes. It happened a couple of years ago and 2 to 3 years ago now. And in that crisis, it revealed the instability and the frailty of a lot of evangelical Christian leadership. Yes. And it awakened in a bunch of Christians a hunger for the kind of leadership that was now apparent. They didn’t have. Right. And so we we have seen our influence, grow and explode. There’s been a refugee column of sorts, a massive influx of people moving to Moscow, Idaho, for the last couple of years. And we, we’ve it’s hard to keep up with it. There was a long stretch where every week at church, I’d meet somebody new and they say, well, we’re here now. And, that people are hungry, hungry, hungry for someone to speak the word of God. This is this is what God would have us do. So the people are hungry for it in a way that I’ve never seen before. And I hear from friends around the country similar, similar sorts of stories. And there were a number of, men who didn’t fold John MacArthur in California being the most notable, of them. And those pastors who didn’t capitulate, who didn’t bend, have seen explosive growth. And, and growth is not its own justification. Right? Cancer grows. Morning glory grows. But in this setting, people who love Jesus, being attracted to people who are willing to proclaim the name of Jesus, whatever the state says about it is, I think, nothing but a good sign.

Tucker [00:59:39] So it sounds like you feel hopeful or, I don’t.

Doug Wilson [00:59:43] Know, very. I’m very hopeful.

Tucker [00:59:47] I mean, what do you think? And this is my last question. Like what is going on in the world? It, it. And I know that everybody famously feels like they’re in the middle of some historical reset, and it’s the fall of Rome or the end of times or whatever, but this doesn’t feel like a normal moment.

Doug Wilson [01:00:04] No, it’s not a normal moment. The one of the reasons this is a sort of a practical, pragmatic, almost carnal observation. But I’m hopeful because in the long run, stupidity never works.

Tucker [01:00:16] Yeah.

Doug Wilson [01:00:16] It, you can you can proclaim all you want, but you can’t make the world be a you have to live in the world God actually made. You don’t. You don’t get to live in the world of your own imagining. You have to live in the world that God made, not the world that you want to make. And consequently, you have to obey its rules.

Tucker [01:00:36] Yes. You call it natural law.

Doug Wilson [01:00:38] Yeah. I saw a great T-shirt once. Gravity. It’s not just a good idea. It’s. It’s the law.

Tucker [01:00:45] I swear.

Doug Wilson [01:00:46] So, so with all this, I’m hopeful because I believed the promises of Psalms, the promises of Isaiah, the promises of, given to Abraham through you, all the nations of the earth will be blessed. I believe that God’s plans for this world are for good, not evil. I believe that God sent His Son to be the Savior of the world, not to not to attempt to save the world. Jesus didn’t come to give saving the world the old college try. The, the most famous verse in the Bible, John 316, is followed by God did not. 317 For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved. So Jesus is not only the offer to answer that will be rejected. Jesus is the answer that will be accepted. So consequently, we this is, another, rabbit rabbit trail. But, our eschatology, our view of the wild things is what’s called post millennial, which is we have a very optimistic view of the future. We believe that the gospel is going to continue to grow and expand. The church is going to be victorious. The Great Commission is going to be fulfilled, and we win. We win. And then the Lord comes back. So, and that doesn’t mean, we win the game, and it’s got four quarters, and we’re ten minutes into the first quarter. Right? And the first quarter can go badly. Well, while we’re learning, learning how to play the game, learning what to do and not to. But you know, it’s you can’t take the microcosm and expand out from that. You might have a soldier pinned down by enemy fire on Normandy Beach, and he he knows his missions to get to the top of the next ridge, and he can’t even get out from behind the sand dune. He could be mightily discouraged because of his position, while at the same moment General Eisenhower is looking at the map with satisfaction. Right.

Tucker [01:02:54] Yes. All right, so we’re-

Doug Wilson [01:02:55] Zoom out. Zoom out. Take the long view. What’s what’s human history like? How how long do we have left? I don’t believe the world is going to end in the next generation. I believe that, the Christian church is going to. The prophet Habakkuk says the earth will be full of the glory, the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. So we have we have great hope that the gospel in its potency is going to be proclaimed and is going to take root and flourish. So, we might lose our lives. You know, you can lose your life in a winning battle, right? A soldier on the winning side can, lose in his little segment. But that’s all right, because Christ is Lord.

Tucker [01:03:46] Are you afraid of anything? Ha, ha. That is the best place to start. We sit on my way. The one person I really don’t trust is me.

Doug Wilson [01:03:57] Yeah. Yeah, so, basically, I’m one of the one of my prayers. Don’t screw up. No, don’t screw up. Right. Yeah. Because basically, that’s. There’s a great story where, Chesterton was asked, along with a bunch of other men, to submit an essay on what’s wrong with the world. You know, they were running a series in the newspaper. What’s wrong with the world? And Chesterton wrote a two word essay. It was I am.

Tucker [01:04:28] That is wisdom. How do you how does one get an invite to your 50 man Sabbath dinner?

Doug Wilson [01:04:33] One chats with me after the show. You’d be most you’d be most welcome anytime.

Tucker [01:04:39] I’m definitely going to do that. Pastor Wilson, thank you so much for spending all this time.

Doug Wilson [01:04:43] Oh, happy to do it. Thank you. Appreciate it.

Tucker [01:04:45] Thank you.